For the guys who are stoically, silently moving through the world

Or, exploring healthy masculinity during the rise of the manosphere.

TW: this article discusses suicide.

There are some conversations that really stick. The words linger for weeks – sometimes years – with a kernel of a lesson that can’t be ignored.

There’s that conversation I had with a creative director at work. He was in his 40s at the time – probably not much older than I am now – and I was in my mid-20s, still idyllic with ambitions to change the world. He was much too talented to be designing the brochures and corporate magazines that strangled his creativity and took up his work hours, and he clung on to his old design awards that sat on his dusty shelf as a reminder of a version of himself he wished he still was.

He was funny when he was in the mood to be, but he was perpetually grumpy about every single aspect of his life. Sometimes, he was so difficult to work with that it was easier to just leave him to stew by himself in his office as his unhappiness transmuted into anger. I can still see us talking in the kitchenette at work one day. He was in one of his more reflective moods when he said to me:

“I am what will happen to you if you don’t follow your dreams.”

Those words still hit me now like they did back then.

Recently, I had another conversation – conversations, actually – that stuck with me, but in a different way.

I’d been commissioned to write a story about men who are changing the face of mental health.

I found five different men with very different stories: one was a war veteran who told me that becoming a dad was harder than learning to walk again after losing both of his legs in Afghanistan. Another was a former sports star who for years used alcohol and relationships to numb the feeling that he was trying to be someone he was not, and only began to find peace when he fully accepted who he really was. One had become a mental health advocate after surviving an attempt to take his own life. Another was facing new challenges of the utopic workplace he had created after working in a toxic environment for most of his career.

The fifth person I spoke to was a clinical psychologist named Dr Zac Seidler, Director of Mental Health Training at men’s health charity Movember. As part of his work, he created the world’s first online professional training program to upskill therapists who engage with men in therapy, called Men In Mind, in order to combat the fact that 50 per cent of men who die by suicide have been in contact with mental health services prior to their death.

As it often happens with commissioned stories for print publications, there was only enough space on the page to include a few sentences from our conversation. And so I included the easiest takeaway: when it comes to men’s mental health, we need to stop talking at men and start listening to them. Really listen.

But he also raised some great points on the state of masculinity today, learning to accept that we all have multiple ways of being that can co-exist and why finding the right therapist is a bit like dating.

And so, I wanted to share our conversation in full. Here it is.

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Lizza: As a psychologist, making sure people look after their mental health is your job, but was there a moment you decided you wanted to focus on men’s mental health specifically?

Dr Zac Seidler: I don't think there was a moment. I think there was a cascade of events that took place over time from my childhood onwards. I think any psychologist or researcher in this space has lived experience, has been through either their own difficulties or that of friends and family. And to suggest that we're immune to this stuff and we're kind of sitting in our ivory tower, looking down on everyone is not the case. We experience it, we live through it, and we struggle with it in a similar vein.

[What makes me different is that] I have an endless curiosity for people's stories. I have lots of faith in people's ability for growth and for change. And I was always intrigued specifically with my male mates and how they were engaging with the world and how they were struggling to talk about things and connect with others.

And so, I got to the point where I started to realise there was a huge gap in the way that we were listening to, understanding, and responding to men in distress. That's when I went, alright, we have an opportunity here to do things a little differently because the status quo is just not working. And so it's been a decade [I’ve spent working as a psychologist] now, and I've really only touched the tip of the iceberg. People call me a specialist, but I'm working with 50 per cent of the population, which feels very strange. So there's a lot to do.

Lizza: It's really interesting what you said there. You didn't say it was about talking at men, it was about listening to men. Can you explain why that’s so integral to focus on the listening component?

Dr Zac Seidler: Yeah, awesome pickup. I didn't even realise [I said that], but it's definitely something that's ingrained in me now. We do a lot of talking at men telling them what not to do.

There's this really strong narrative: “Don't be this”, “don't do this”, “don't talk like this”. As a result, society is rife with stereotypes about how men behave. And what is happening is we've got this self-fulfilling prophecy, which is that men are starting to continue to really respond and act in ways that are expected of them, and that's really harmful.

So when I talk about listening, it's that we do a lot of assuming when it comes to men's mental health and not a lot of asking, not a lot of, “Tell me what's going on”. We do this like, “Oh, he's not talking to me because he's an unemotional guy who doesn't feel, doesn't know how to talk about his emotions, and therefore I'm just going to assume that he's fine or that he's an alcoholic or that he's cheating on his wife”, whatever it might be. And what I and Movember more broadly are trying to achieve is shining a light on the depth and diversity of men's experiences that have not seen the light of day. And to show what healthy, positive masculinity looks like and to give that it's time in the limelight in order to start to shift these narratives.

Lizza: So how would you describe healthy positive masculinity?

Dr Zac Seidler: Great question. I just did a South by Southwest talk on it, so you'd hope I'd get it perfect.

Lizza [cheekily]: The succinct version, please.

Dr Zac Seidler: Yeah, I did talk about it for a whole hour [laughs]. I tend to describe it in one word, which is flexibility. The idea of “toxic masculinity” I think is shaming and distancing men by assuming that something inherent, innate within them is broken. Rather, we want to look for openness and opportunity, and that's what healthy masculinity provides. And so flexibility is the complete opposite of this traditional masculinity to be strong and stoic and the breadwinner, etc. Flexibility means there is a time and a place for certain behaviours. You cannot apply everything everywhere.

Lizza: I love that. It's more accepting.

Dr Zac Seidler: And this is where the idea of masculinity has come up, which is that we have multiple ways of being. I respond differently with my friends at the pub than I do with my niece, than I do with my partner. These should all coexist. They can contradict each other. That's fine. But the idea that we need to throw out self-reliance or stoicism or being a protective provider – these are really useful, powerful norms that society needs in the right mix. That's the thing. You need to know when and where.

Lizza: Yeah. Now, how did you personally learn to reach out for help?

Dr Zac Seidler: I'm still working it out. The thing is, I'm working against three decades of socialised repression, really, which is that even being in this field, even understanding all that I've learnt, doing however many degrees I was still brought up in a similar way to the majority of men in this country.

And so I have to work on that muscle, which is that my brain tells me, “Keep this to yourself.” My brain tells me, “Don't say that. That seems weak.” “You can deal with this yourself” – whatever it might be. And I have to actively push against that.

When it comes down to it, when people go, “What do young men need in order to be able to do this stuff?” It is a self-reflective capacity. It's insight. It's the ability to question yourself and go, “What's happening right now? And should I act against my instinct?”

Lizza: And you mentioned young men there. Do you find the same challenges for older men?

Dr Zac Seidler: It's different. Lots of people, when they talk about older men, they talk about them like their past their used-by date, and that we don't need to pay attention to them. They're often the forgotten, lonely members of our community. And the suicide rate is highest in older men. And so what I try to build into these conversations is that, yes, there is a lot of opportunity and points of intervention when it comes to young guys, but we have this obsession in the mental health world to focus on young people when we've got a lot of suffering in the community, in others.

Talking with older guys, they have so much experience and understanding of the world that if you just make minor tweaks, you can help them see things in a way that they've never had the ability to. Young men have a language: they understand what health is, they understand what anxiety and trauma are. Older guys still don't even have that. So getting them this base understanding can really change their way of thinking.

Lizza: So how do you encourage men to seek help? Especially for those who feel like therapy is not going to work, it's just a load of shit.

Dr Zac Seidler: Men are really happy to talk about their physiotherapist, so why can't they talk about their psychologist in a similar way? Which is to say, “I tried this guy, it sucked.” Rather, what we do in our head is we go, “[This therapist has] got one chance, don't fuck it up.” That's how many men enter therapy with me but they won't tell me. And so I try to bring that conversation out, which is like, “Hey man, this is like dating. This is a complex thing. It's not always going to work.”

I think we need more conversations between men about the ins and outs of the healthcare system. We want to upskill men to understand what happens when they go in the room and the power that they have to ask questions to challenge the therapist to say, “I don't think that this is working. What is happening here? Can we do something differently?” We need to fix the power dynamic, I think. And then we need to have men speaking with other guys about what happened, how it felt, what worked, what didn't.

We also need to get the therapist feeling like they're in the right headspace. I just think that many, many therapists that I speak to are confounded and confused by many men's behaviours, and we need to get them comfortable dealing with it.

Lizza: Which is also part of your work as well, right?

Dr Zac Seidler: Exactly. I get therapists trained, get them willing, able, confident, and competent to know what we're dealing with, to understand masculinity in all its depth and really to be able to sit in the room with men and start asking rather than assuming.

Lizza: Now you've already talked a bit about your work and what you do in this space. Is there anything else that you're currently working on that you want to delve into a bit more?

Dr Zac Seidler: Yeah, we're doing a lot of stuff. We're trying to understand the role of the manosphere, which is the Andrew Tates, Jordan Petersons, Joe Rogans of the world.

We’re looking at their content on TikTok and starting to understand the impact that it's having on young men who are feeling really disempowered and disenfranchised. We’re looking into why young men are seeking out those voices and how we can offer them a type of guidance from healthy male voices instead that shows them what they're capable of in many ways.

We're also working with the Clinton Foundation on a body of work to try to understand how to measure masculinity. And more broadly, we're trying to rally the government here to start to understand that working on men's health will benefit everybody.

Healthy men, healthy world – that’s what we're pushing for. Lots of people have spoken about domestic violence, for instance, as a women's issue. And we just don't see it that way. We see this as a men's health issue and something that men should be responding to and we need to create preventative measures to help men understand what is happening, and why, and we need to help society better respond to it as well. So lots flying around at Movember at the moment, but it's exciting times.

Lizza: Yeah, very exciting. What do you do regularly to look after your mental health?

Dr Zac Seidler: Good question. I run and I swim every day in the ocean if I can. I'm finding more and more as I age that my social connections start to splinter as men age. It's really common. Your number of friends starts to dwindle so I'm actively arranging catch-ups with my friends because I know that it’s the lifeblood of men's wellbeing.

I’m also trying to hark back to those days of being carefree as kids and running around and kicking a ball, whatever it might be. I think it's been really useful setting up those times for just being present there. And then I play the drums, which is the time when my mind really switches off, which is a very lucky thing that my mum never let me quit when I was a kid.

Lizza: That's so cool. I've been wanting to learn how to play drums for years! But there's nowhere to put drums in our apartment.

Dr Zac Seidler: Tell me about it. My partner is not happy, but you got to do what you've got to do.

Lizza: Yeah [laughs]. Now, if you could leave us with one final takeaway, what would that be?

Dr Zac Seidler: I think that it's about making sure that you are seeing opportunity and hope, and believing that the men in your life are capable and willing to offer far more than they might be right now. So open up the doors for them, show them what you think they're capable of and bring them along on that journey.

And most importantly, wrap your arms around them, because the amount of guys who are stoically, silently moving through the world, feeling extremely isolated and lonely…  that is at the core of our community's issues at the moment. We need to provide them with a sense of connection and belonging.

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Listening and more hugs, my friends. Listening and more hugs.

Until our next 3am Huddle,

Lizza x

If you or someone you know needs support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14. If life is in immediate danger, call 000.

Photo by Stormseeker on Unsplash